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"Why does LE pick on us?"

 
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Hezekiah (60 posts) Click to send private message to Hezekiah Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 11:42 AM (PDT)
"Why does LE pick on us?"
I am posting this in the conservatory in the hope to minimize mindless angry responses of the form "LE is scum!!!!".

So.. why do police put time, effort, and our tax dollars, into stings and arrests (SW, AMP, busts, etc)? I don't think they are merely all vindictive self-righteous idiots. Consider this hint frm the recent Marin County news story:...

City Manager Rod Gould said the city decided to get tough
on prostitution after receiving numerous complaints from
business owners and residents.

"Complaints have increased in the past two years, where
businesses next door suspected that something more
than massage is going on. They are incensed about it
and want city government to enforce the law," Gould said.

So...at least part of it seems to be that a majority of the voters don't want AMPs and SWs in their neighbourhood. The police are enforcing the law (their job is not to interpret it or even to agree with it, but to enforce it) and responding to perceived community needs.

OK brethren (and providers)...so are we in RB entirely fair and open-minded in our attitudes to the police?

(No, I'm not at all a cop)

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WhiteKnight (38 posts) Click to send private message to WhiteKnight Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 11:57 AM (PDT)
1. "RE: Why does LE pick on us?"
This has been explained to me before by anonymous LE. They will go after prostitution based on the three C's.

Complaints!

Commercial!

Conspicuous!

So, as long as an operation is low key and does not draw complaints or is overly conspicuous or in a commercial district they will probably be left alone.

Of course this varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Some cities have zero tolerance, while others are more lenient.

Knight

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macimay (34 posts) Click to send private message to macimay Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 12:18 PM (PDT)
2. "RE: Cut their budget!"
I for one would be interested in knowing what kind of complaints
were recieved from businesses and residents.
Not that it would change anything for anybody.
The San Rafael situation seems to be fueled by a newly hired chief
who has been sitting there all these years watching. Now that he is in the position of power, well it's history now.
I personally hate to see ATF's leave the sceen because it leaves a gap in service providers. It's hard to be put in a postion to take the place of somebody's ATF.
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FreeWillyDave (368 posts) Click to send private message to FreeWillyDave Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 12:38 PM (PDT)
3. "$$ or moral cents?"
but this is related enough. I've always wondered if it really was JUST a morality issue keeping prostitution illegal by the powers-that-be. But sometimes I really wonder if it is not just a purely economic issue.

Simple fact: illegal or not, prostitution has always been a cash business, and largely untaxable. If you look at the huge dollars going into providers', agencies', pimps', parlors', etc., pockets, you'd see a lot of untaxed commerce going on.

Is it just the money? After all, even if they legalized the hobby, I can't imagine an increase in the exposure or the number of providers over the status quo because of that one technicality.

Looking forward to any comments--


FWD

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CharlieNoble9 (57 posts) Click to EMail CharlieNoble9 Click to send private message to CharlieNoble9 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 01:15 PM (PDT)
5. "RE: $$ or moral cents?"
Any idea how Nevada handles these issues? Interesting!
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dox (24 posts) Click to send private message to dox Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 01:53 PM (PDT)
6. "RE: $$ or moral cents?"
this is a primarily cash business because it is illegal. the government doesn't have any problems with restaurant waiters and waitresses' tip incomes, which tend to be cash based as well. if prostitution is legalized i'm sure a lot of this income will surface to the tabletop, and the government will find a way to get its share.

at the end of the day, i think it boils down to a morality issue, which i think is misplaced. to minimuze complaints, the gov't can zone a red light district away from the main commercial centers, so the comings and goings of johns don't bother other "legit" businesses.

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TheBopper (185 posts) Click to send private message to TheBopper Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 01:14 PM (PDT)
4. "RE: Why does LE pick on us?"
As others have pointed out, the main reason that places get into trouble is complaints from neighboring businesses or neighboring residents because of the people traffic. The majority of citizens are opposed to this hobby, and I beleive that they incorrectly think that the people who participate in the hobby are "bad people". Therefore, if/when they hear or suspect the activity is occurring near them, they complain, and then LE is forced to take action.

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macimay (34 posts) Click to send private message to macimay Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 01:55 PM (PDT)
7. "RE: Why does LE pick on us?"
All the more reason why clients ought to do the PR work that's needed to educate the public about the many benifits of being a client
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escritic (1395 posts) Click to send private message to escritic Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 02:25 PM (PDT)
8. "One Good Reason Why Prostitution Isn't Legalized"
LAST EDITED ON 24-Apr-01 AT 02:28 PM (PDT)


This way the politicians can blackmail each other without coming up with new blackmail schemes (illegal = not socially acceptable). You can just hire a prostitute and set your target up. Usually this target is married. So you can threaten the target for adultry, having sex with minor, homosexuality, etc.

Have I been watching too much movies?

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nightowl31 (17 posts) Click to send private message to nightowl31 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 02:30 PM (PDT)
9. "RE: Why does LE pick on us?"
I suspect that the City Manager is embellishing somewhat in regard to the number of complaints and the level of concern. He doesn't indicate how much of an increase - if it was from 1 or 2 to only 3 or 4, then that's still an increase. No doubt that some of them might have been angry, but he makes it sound like all of the businesses are up in arms, which I find unlikely. His statements are understandable, though, as he has to appear responsive. I completely agree with the posts regarding the reasons why LE has to take action. In this jurisdiction, though, I think it had more to do with who was making the complaints, and not so much perceived concern about what was going on by "businesses next door." I'm not familliar with the 4th Street area, but the places on Irwin, Lincoln, and Redwood Highway were hardly conspicuous. Political necessity isn't always indicative of the moral climate, but the "squeaky wheel" analogy almost always applies.
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jimboy (241 posts) Click to send private message to jimboy Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 03:31 PM (PDT)
10. "RE: Why does LE pick on us?"
Here's another reason to consider. Most medium to large size police/sheriff's depts have a vice squad. Part of any squad's mindset is always going to be to try to justify their own existence. So even if there are more serious crimes to be investigated, unless and until a vice squad is disbanded, that squad will have to generate arrests, etc. just to show their superiors they're not sitting around doing nothing.

No police chief/sheriff is going to commit career suicide by disbanding their vice squad. And as long as they exist they're going to have to find stuff to do. Of course, their priorities may change from time to time (now AMPs, maybe later SWs) as politicians, merchants, and citizens complain about various situations. Each dept and community will set up standards (formal or informal) as to what they will tolerate (e.g. SF is more tolerant that Marin or SJ). But, whatever the standard, the vice cops will find something to keep themselves busy.

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Skyman (3 posts) Click to send private message to Skyman Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 04:07 PM (PDT)
11. "RE: Why does LE pick on us?"
Having worked with and currently working with a Bay Area municipality, I see a lots of politics as well. It may be more a matter of bragging rights-"hey, look at how tough I am busting these AMPs because I really can't do anything about the real crimes occurring in my jurisdiction." You can expect Terrance Halinan to get busy shortly before election time if he plans on running for re-election, particularly given all the bad publicity he's had the past several months as being soft on crime-he is, of course, but that's a topic for another time and place.
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macimay (34 posts) Click to send private message to macimay Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 05:09 PM (PDT)
12. "RE: I don't think it is over yet"
I heard a rumor, and since this is such a great place do the litmus test on the truth...
I heard that the city manager in question is gay?
Anybody know where he does his business?
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nikk (81 posts) Click to send private message to nikk Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 05:34 PM (PDT)
13. "RE: I don't think it is over yet"
the bottom line is politics. The moral majority wields a heavy hand, and so do many local church and moral activist groups. They control many votes, so it is a smart career move to keep them happy. The truth is many of the same moral crusaders probably travel to other cities for their secret activities.
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Hezekiah (60 posts) Click to send private message to Hezekiah Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 05:56 PM (PDT)
14. "Could some real police chime in here?"
I hear lots of people on this board sayign what they think the reasoning must be in police departments: mmeeting quotas, going after easy targets, etc.

Along with this seems to be an undercurrent of low regard for the police officers. I think most officers probably are as deserving of our respect as are the best providers on this board -- there are likely to be some suboptimal police just as there are some ROBs. But let's not judge the majority by the minority.

So...are there any police officers out there who can contribute? (I just realizxed that since this is the Conservatory that might be difficult, but please do try). Speak up for yourselves. Is life merely a question of quotas, blackmail, and empire-building?

And ladies: how many of you have had police as clients? Respond anonymously, and share your experiences: under what circumstances? ("screw me or I most certainly will screw you"? or "I cannot be found out because of my job, but deep down I'm a man like all other men, with the same needs")

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justwhaturlooking4 (43 posts) Click to EMail justwhaturlooking4 Click to send private message to justwhaturlooking4 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 08:58 PM (PDT)
15. "RE: Could some real police chime in here?"
Yes, I have had police as clients. I have had 2 clients who refused to tell me what they do.... one turned out to be a mortician. He didnt want to say till after we had met, cuz he thought it would turn me off. Actually he ended up telling me some fascinating stories about his work. Another wouldnt say till after....then he said, "Do you really want to know what I do?" and showed me his badge. I almost fainted. He was an east bay cop...had come to my area for services. I asked him do you really think the world's oldest profession is that bad, he said no, but you have to answer complaints when you get them. Lynn
www.geocities.com/justwhaturlooking4/
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Strong (873 posts) Click to send private message to Strong Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 10:25 PM (PDT)
16. "RE: Could some real police chime in here?"
The police should really spend their time on more serious issues. As far as trying to bust independent providers that is a total waste of time. It's behind closed doors and not on the street. I can see the cops wanting to get the street girls busted because of the businesses in the area but not the independents.
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jimboy (241 posts) Click to send private message to jimboy Click to check IP address of the poster
24-Apr-01, 11:01 PM (PDT)
17. "RE: Could some real police chime in here?"
Of course there are always going to be more serious issues that they SHOULD spend their time on. But, like I said before, as long as vice units exist they're going to do what vice units do.

As far as busting independents, it's not a waste of time from the vice cop's point of view. While it's true that it's more likely they'll go after AMPs and SWs (more bang for the buck), they also target independents from time to time. By getting a hotel room (or two) and scheduling outcalls with multiple providers, they can make a series of busts in one night and have something to show the bosses.

It's even better if some of the busted providers also work for agencies. Then the cops can try to get them to roll over on the agency owner - who can then be charged with a felony.

Unfortunately, as much as we might wish for it, this isn't likely to change anytime soon. The best we can do is use RB and our own resourcefulness to stay out of their way.

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