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"The Decline and Fall Of the MSC Empire"

 
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caligula* (3 posts) Click to EMail caligula%2A Click to check IP address of the poster
01-May-01, 03:44 PM (PDT)
"The Decline and Fall Of the MSC Empire"
Judging from some of the postings in response to Rasputin's open letter to management he seems to have hit a nerve. I can just imagine management screaming at those dancers who dare to cross their paths, and the extreme frustration they must feel in not being able to suppress a critique of their latest ill-conceived plan. Still more satisfying is imagining them as they watch their bottom line shrink as the audience size dwindles and the dancers leave en masse for greener pastures.

Many of the responses of the MSC shills focused on technical points or semantics, in some feeble attempt to deflect attention from the more central and substantive points. But despite all these verbal gymnastics nothing can change the facts that the crowds are getting smaller and that there are fewer dancers. If the new parking meter system is so inspired and successful, why are there so many postings that bother to respond to the open letter from some disgruntled insignificant regulars with such venom? Why not just ignore these whining regulars while management cries all the way to the bank?

Two recurring points the MSC shills use to try and shout down those who dare to criticize:

1) Any customers will do and that they do not need regulars. Annoying regulars will disappear and be replaced by the hordes of naive, big-spending tourists pouring in off Market Street, especially at night. These new customers will be so naive that they will not know that $20 for every five minutes is a ripoff and soon will enjoy being overcharged as part of the experience. Many other customers will stream in on recommendation of their friends.

(2) MSC is a "text book" monopoly and they can do anything they like and people will be forced to come to MSC no matter how unpleasant or how expensive. In a brilliant stroke of genius, management will hire such unattractive dancers that customers will pay them to put on their clothes, rather than take them off. Management will also rent out ad space on the naked bodies of the few remaining attractive, if overweight, dancers in an attempt to further increase their revenues.

Let the shills rant as much as they want. They canít change the fact that the new parking meter system isnít working. They may not go out of business, but the gravy train of the past will be only a memory.

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close* (3 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
01-May-01, 04:46 PM (PDT)
1. "RE: The Decline and Fall Of the MSC Empire"
<They canít change the fact that the new parking meter system isnít working. They may not go out of business, but the gravy train of the past will be only a memory.>

I totally agree. The parking meter system, priced as it is now, most certainly isn't working. MSC has always been about volume, customers and dancers, and getting as much $$$ out them as they can without crossing the line. The parking meter system not only crossed that line, it left it 10 miles back in the rear view mirror. Dancers won't work if there's no money to be made and customers won't show up if there's no dancers, and the downward spiral begins. Where it stops, that's anybody's guess. Really only MSC can stop it, I just don't think they know how.

FYI, I think the monopoly posts were more to explain how MSC was able to ride the gravy train the past few years & treat the customers and dancers like garbage in the process.

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rich* (1 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
01-May-01, 08:52 PM (PDT)
2. "MSC No way"
I have gone to the MSC for so long I have my own seat. But I will have to tell you, never again. I would have to float a bond issue to go in the back with my favorite girls. The last time I went and it will be the last time. I was rushed, had to keep feeding the meter. I'm sorry it is just a ripe off. Beside the meter the girls are getting really ugly.
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Miles (534 posts) Click to send private message to Miles Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
01-May-01, 10:13 PM (PDT)
5. "RE: The Decline and Fall Of the MSC Empire"
I'm not trying to shout down or criticize anyone. It seems that if I try to present an alternative point of view here regarding what may be in store for the MSC, not today, not tomorrow, not three months from now, but further down the road, and I can't tow the populist line signing the MSC's death certificate, then I must be a "shill." Well, this "shill" was never a public advocate of MSC management in the first place, and especially with the new system in it's full glory, I'm certainly not recommending that anyone, either explicitly or implicitly, go ahead give it a try for obvious reasons.

Although MSC's apparent business under the new policy in place may have fallen dramatically as of today, it's still way too early to reasonably predict it's failure, and I don't think MSC management really gives a shit if business is down right now. They can ride it out. That doesn't mean I condone it. I just think everyone is completely ignoring a much larger dynamic playing itself out in this business, and instead, narrowly focusing on last few weeks of dramatic change in the MSC and assuring themselves that no business doing business like this can ever survive. Well, maybe it won't, but you might think for a minute and try looking at the complete picture, not just a snapshot of how things happen to look at the MSC right now and jump to a fast conclusion. This isn't simply about the MSC.

In the early nineties, I remember a dancer friend working at MBOT told me that MBOT was widely regarded in the industry as an innovator and trend-setter for every other strip club in town. Because of MBOT's history of success, club owners would pay attention to any new changes made at MBOT and eventually adopt their own version. They wouldn't match MBOT dollar for dollar, but basically copy the same concept. When MBOT started charging stage fees, other clubs started charging stage fees. When MBOT built private booths, other clubs built private booths. Our discussion of the current "crises" at MSC has completely ignored MBOT, which embarked on virtually the same type of gimmick this year, and they started with a bang before MSC. In this hysterical haste to write-off MSC, everyone is ignoring what is going on (or will be going on) peripherally in other clubs here in the City. After all, they are essentially all in the same business, making money the same way, most notably the so-called full service clubs. So when it's suggested that the MSC has "competition" and isn't the only game in town, well, that's true. But don't expect any major relief from the MSC's System Sticker Shock. Why?

You remember that little amendment to the labor code that went into effect this year, don't you? It apparently put the fear of God (or a lawsuit, take your pick) into the SF strip club industry. Stage fee revs, which were substantial in the FS clubs, vanished. The law didn't single out MSC, it applies to EVERY CLUB IN THE CITY. And it isn't an experiment, and it isn't temporary. Club owners in the city are currently squeezed to come up with an alternative to stage fees, and as always, big daddy MBOT will show them the way. Just like they have in the past. With every club in the city effectively following the same practice, how could MSC be excluded from it's usual share of the city's club goers? Where else are they going to go?

So what does it mean to the average strip club aficionado? Effectively, your price of admission in SF clubs just went through the roof. You single out MSC as being intolerable, but as the remainder of the year unfolds, I doubt that customers or dancers will find much relief in the other major SF clubs. They will be following some version of MSC's...I mean MBOT's system, but at least it in an Omar-free zone, for what that's worth.

By the way, MSC shill junior detectives, I posted at the beginning of the year (January) in a thread about the new labor code amendment that all of this ugliness would happen in about six months, and that was post was virtually ignored. I was off by about a month. It was predictable back then, just as the commonality of the system currently in place at MSC spreading to other SF clubs is predictable now. It's really not that tough to put together.

At least I have reason for saying what I say.

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Observing PL * (1 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
02-May-01, 00:04 AM (PDT)
6. "RE: The Decline and Fall Of the MSC Empire"
When was last time you even visited the MSC? You give these long and philosophical post when you yourself says you dont go to the strip clubs.
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Miles (534 posts) Click to send private message to Miles Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
02-May-01, 01:24 AM (PDT)
8. "RE: The Decline and Fall Of the MSC Empire"
The last time I was there was the latter part of 2000, after a very long and refreshing absense from the place.

Coincidental to AMPFan's post, I was there seeing Mickey before she took off on her last vacation. (And I would be amazed if she ever sets foot in that place again.)

I used to go regularly, starting about 93 until 97or 98. By then, I had enough.

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AMPFan (577 posts) Click to send private message to AMPFan Click to check IP address of the poster
02-May-01, 00:22 AM (PDT)
7. "Redefining the role of the strip club"
At one point, I was visiting MSC 2-3 times a week. Ever since the meters went up in February, I've stayed away. If I go back, it'll only be to jot down phone numbers and e-mail addresses so I can book some outside sessions. The only way I'll ever step into one of those private rooms again is if Miki comes back.
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MP* (5 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
02-May-01, 01:26 PM (PDT)
10. "RE: The Decline and Fall Of the MSC Empire"
You're probably right that the owner/management will probably try to ride it out even if the club goes completely empty. The potential reward for them is just too tempting. Us clients should be prepared for a very, very long and protracted war of will. IMO, there's no harm or anything to lose though by writing or complaining ad nauseaum to them.

I may still visit every once in a while but I won't feed any meter though. I'll just use it to get myself up then go onto the streets.

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Close* (3 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
02-May-01, 02:24 PM (PDT)
12. "RE: The Decline and Fall Of the MSC Empire"
<MBOT was widely regarded in the industry as an innovator and trend-setter for every other strip club in town. Because of MBOT's history of success, club owners would pay attention to any new changes made at MBOT and eventually adopt their own version. They wouldn't match MBOT dollar for dollar, but basically copy the same concept. >

The last sentence says it all <They (other clubs) wouldn't match MBOT dollar for dollar, but basically copy the same concept. >

Not only has MSC matched MBOT dollar for dollar with regards to the booth charges, they've exceeded MBOT by double. And not only are MSC's prices double that of MBOT, they're double after MBOT doubled their own price. Anyway you add it up, NOTHING at MSC should be more expensive than MBOT and certainly not double.

MSC has totally lost touch of who they are and where they are in the industry. MSC is, was, and always should be, a high volume, less expensive knock off of MBOT. The decision to price the booths at $20 for 5 min is either the most arrogant, most greedy or most stupid thing I've ever seen. I just can't figure out which one, probably all 3.

THAT is why I think MSC will die. If they are not smart enough to copy (cheaply) MBOT, how are they going to manage their business in the face of the new law. MSC might not die, but they probably should change their name to NCT 2. Hey they got naked girls, SOMEONE's gonna walk inside.

I'm not really pissed that they institued the meter system, I'm pissed at the price. If the meter been reasonably priced ($20 for 15 minutes sounds fair) I would have paid it. Do a 30 min PS with a dancer and negotiated for the show just like I would over a MBOT (a service + number of tokens). It would have been business as usual (at least for me) at MSC.

But $20 for 5 minutes? That is suicide.

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Miles (534 posts) Click to send private message to Miles Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
02-May-01, 10:40 PM (PDT)
17. "FWIW"
Completely agree.

Thanks for the info, and thanks for the reasonable reply

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WB (38 posts) Click to send private message to WB Click to check IP address of the poster
02-May-01, 11:45 AM (PDT)
9. "It can't hurt..."
if everyone who visits (or used to, like me) MSC, writes an email to the management and tells them the meters suck (whereas he GIRLS should be doing that)!

;p

msclive@value.net

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WorkingMan* (1 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
02-May-01, 01:27 PM (PDT)
11. "RE: The Decline and Fall Of the MSC Empire"
MILES wrote:
<Stage fee revs, which were substantial in the FS clubs, vanished. The law didn't single out MSC, it applies to EVERY CLUB IN THE CITY. Club owners in the city are currently squeezed to come up with an alternative to stage fees, and as always, big daddy MBOT will show them the way.>

Point of clarification:
MBOT had the token/meter system in place even before the new law was passed effectively ending stage fees.

When the new law started, MBOT responded by selling private show "tickets" at $20 a pop.


<You single out MSC as being intolerable, but as the remainder of the year unfolds, I doubt that customers or dancers will find much relief in the other major SF clubs.>

Until 2 weeks ago, MSC required dancers to get customers to pay a certain amount to the meters per dance shift. It was usual for dancers to have the customers feed the meter ONCE at the beginning of the PS. No further feeding was required regardless of the length of the show. This allowed MSC to fully re-capture the lost "stage fee" income.

What is now seen by me and many others as intolerable is the new requirement that the meter be CONSTANTLY fed, regardless of whether the dancer has already made her quota. This has nothing to do with the change in law, but as you say, it follows MBOT's example. Once MSC had the meter system in place, they decided to see how much MORE they could squeeze using it. The main problem is that MSC's meters cost 2x MBOT's. I do not believe MSC can sustain this price structure.

I agree with you that meters will soon be everywhere in strip clubs. But it is not necessarily the case that all the clubs will require the meter to be constantly fed. Feeding it once at the beginning of a PS and having a dancer quota for how much must be fed per shift are workable solutions that would have a similar result to the old stage fees.

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caligula* (3 posts) Click to EMail caligula%2A Click to check IP address of the poster
02-May-01, 04:12 PM (PDT)
13. "RE: The Decline and Fall Of the MSC Empire"
I certainly respect anyone's right to present alternative points of view. But it's difficult to understand how anyone who is a PL could have a sympathetic point of view to the parking meters. The constant feeding of them is anathema to a pleasant and leisurely experience. What I can't understand is why people who are associated with MSC can't admit it, and who have to pretend they are just good old PLs like the rest of us, only they can see both sides of the issue.

Judging by the all the lengthy posts , MSC's shills are desperate to portray all those who disagree with the new parking meters as the ravings of some annoying, disgruntled regulars. MSC doesn't need regulars, they claim, any customers will do. MSC can do what they want they say, because they are a monopoly and we better shut up and stop bitching about the parking meters or start our own club.

MSC is alive and well and future expansion is planned the posts snicker. But if business is so good and these posts are from only a disturbed few, why bother to take the time to respond to these lunatic ramblings? Why not just ignore them like the many homeless who beg for money in front of MSC? No, I think they know that the parking meters aren't working but they're trying to convince everyone that despite what the PLs think or say the meters are good for the PLs. How could anyone not enjoy being interrupted every five minutes? Shut up and go back to sleep.

Keep up the posts, PLs and dancers, about the parking meters and keep these shills on their toes. When you stop seeing responses to the posts that's when you know the meters are really working.

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musicforman2* (6 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
02-May-01, 07:12 PM (PDT)
14. "RE: The Decline and Fall Of the MSC Empire"
I'll say it again. The management at MSC does not care what you think. If you wrote 100 e-mails it would be useless because they believe they can stick it to you. The only thing that makes sense to me is to find another club. The only thing that would really wake them up is for most of their dancers to leave and it's 9 and counting. It's time for that vacation girls.
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snowboardca (189 posts) Click to send private message to snowboardca Click to check IP address of the poster
02-May-01, 07:35 PM (PDT)
15. "msc is making some sense"
They hardly made any money when you fuck the strippers in the back room. They don't care if the strippers get rich off of whoring, they want to make money themselves, and if the illegal activity declines in their club as a result, why should they give a fuck? Even though a lot fewer guys are fucking their strippers, msc is still making their cut.Eventually the strippers will fuck the customers for a lot less than they do now,or they'll starve.The drop in price for the stripper to bang you will even out with the raise in price that msc charges for their rooms, so you'll be paying the same. The customer won't get hurt in the long run with this policy, the stripper will.She will be forced to provide better service to get repeat customers, she will be forced to charge less, and she'll be forced to do more. The customer will win in this a couple months down the line. This is just another reminder to strippers... you are in a shitty business, and it always will be.
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Miles (534 posts) Click to send private message to Miles Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
02-May-01, 10:14 PM (PDT)
16. "RE: The Decline and Fall Of the MSC Empire"
LAST EDITED ON 02-May-01 AT 10:18 PM (PDT)

>I certainly respect anyone's right to
>present alternative points of view.

No, I doubt it.

>But it's difficult to understand
>how anyone who is a
>PL could have a sympathetic
>point of view to the
>parking meters.

Well, I guess you find it confusing because I've already posted that I'm not a "PL" and I never posted or remotely implied that I was "sympathetic" to the parking meters.

The constant feeding
>of them is anathema to
>a pleasant and leisurely experience.


You finally got one right, but please don't take that as encouragement, because it's an obvious conclusion.

>What I can't understand is
>why people who are associated
>with MSC can't admit it,
>and who have to pretend
>they are just good old
>PLs like the rest of
>us, only they can see
>both sides of the issue.

You can't understand because you've been far too busy substituting your imagination for fact. A practice the real world will naturally prevent you from doing. Hence your conflict, your confusion. But this is the internet, and here you can stretch out and enjoy the luxury of not having to give any reason or support for your remarks. Feels good, doesn't it?

>
>
>Judging by the all the lengthy
>posts , MSC's shills are
>desperate to portray all those
>who disagree with the new
>parking meters as the ravings
>of some annoying, disgruntled regulars.

Well, it looks like they were too lengthy, because you apparently didn't bother to take the time and read them. My bad. In any event, none of my posts were about anyone's approval or disapproval of parking meters. My comments dealt specifically with the strip club industry as a whole, noting that MSC is just a link shaking in a much larger chain. Of course, your brilliant, forensic analysis of that last sentence will be "MSC shill! Parking meter advocate!" By the way, did you take the Evelyn Wood speed reading class and flunk?

>MSC doesn't need regulars, they
>claim, any customers will do.

Finally, something I actually did say. Still stand by it. I've spent a lot of time in clubs and have seen regulars come and go.

>MSC can do what they
>want they say, because they
>are a monopoly and we
>better shut up and stop
>bitching about the parking meters
>or start our own club.

Well, I never said they were a monopoly, and I don't know where you read that "we better shut up and stop bitching about the parking meters or start our own club." Or are you gracing us once again with your insightful, well-honed analytical skills.

>MSC is alive and well and
>future expansion is planned the
>posts snicker.

Planned future expansion? Really? Where? Let's go!

But if business
>is so good and these
>posts are from only a
>disturbed few, why bother to
>take the time to respond
>to these lunatic ramblings?

Despite your needless, negative characterizations, I'll answer this. Because a number of customers be inherently delusional about the strip club business and what it’s real purpose is. If not delusional, forgetfull. And before you get your motor going, that doesn't mean I think I'm right all of the time, or even in this instance regarding MSC's business. In fact, judging from the comments I've read in this thread about the gulf that exists between MBOT’s policy and the MSC, then I agree MSC will undoubtably fail if they attempt to continue the current practice. The only water they walk on came from the toilet that backed-up downstairs.

But, at least I'll take the time to post my reasons, Mr. caligula. If someone asks a question, I'll answer it. I appreciate someone who at least bothers to understand my general concept and notes how misaligned they are with MBOT, the undisputed King of SF strip clubs.

On the other hand, you post nothing but your own contrivance, coming from someplace where no man has gone before. Thanks for sharing.

Why
>not just ignore them like
>the many homeless who beg
>for money in front of
>MSC?

See above.

No, I think they
>know that the parking meters
>aren't working but they're trying
>to convince everyone that despite
>what the PLs think or
>say the meters are good
>for the PLs.

Gee, I hate to sound like a broken record, but once again, where did you read this?

How could
>anyone not enjoy being interrupted
>every five minutes? Shut up
>and go back to sleep.

See above

>Keep up the posts, PLs and
>dancers, about the parking meters
>and keep these shills on
>their toes. When you stop
>seeing responses to the posts
>that's when you know the
>meters are really working.

Sure. Thanks again for the obvious evangelism.

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caligula* (3 posts) Click to EMail caligula%2A Click to check IP address of the poster
03-May-01, 01:27 AM (PDT)
18. "RE: The Decline and Fall Of the MSC Empire"
Nice try with the latest non-replies to the central points in my posts and those who in general agree. When an argument can't be won with facts, some resort to ad hominem attacks. I leave that judgment to the readers whether that might be the case here. It's great flattery to see that so much time apparently was spent on the non-replies to my and the various other ramblings of fellow PLs. Someone is presumably racking up a large number of billable hours in the process of posting these non-replies. Maybe someone is trying to pad their bill a bit by responding to so many non-points. Or maybe they get paid by the word.

One thing I notice is that the issue of the non-crowds and the non-dancers is never mentioned in the non-replies. Is it possible that they haven't read the latest MSC propaganda and don't know the parking meters are a good thing for them?

If all of my posts and those who in general agree with me are so obviously flawed why does someone who claims not to be associated with MSC take so much time to reply? Myself and other PLs are motivated to vent our dissatisfaction because it interferes with our ability to spend leisurely time with our ATFs. (All, the club, the dancers and the PLs benefited during the pre-parking meter days.) But what is the motivation of all those who post point by point refutations or tell us we're wasting our breath or that we should start our own club? Can anyone really believe that these posts are coming from fellow PLs or dancers?

No, if MSC's new parking meter system was such a great financial success, we would never see so many or such lengthy posts from those claiming or pretending to be some mysterious neutral party, not management, not PL and not dancer. Management would be secure in the knowledge of the great success of their parking meter system, and ignore the posts as the grumblings of a few and thankfully gone regulars.

To recap, here I believe are the two main complaints about the parking meters:

1) The need to CONSTANTLY feed the parking meters completely destroys the experience for anyone in a private show.

2) The fees for the private room are excessive. Few will be able to pay for a private show of any real length, even if they didn't mind the constant interruptions. $240/hour plus $$$ to the dancer plus admission. Outcalls are only $350/hour and you are never interrupted.

If management resorts to a per visit charge, they still should be able to recapture the lost stage fees, and then some. This should address points 1 and 2. I believe many PLs would find this arrangement more agreeable, based on several posts and conversations with numerous PLs.

IMO, MSC is not MBOT and never will be. The neighborhood outside is a combat zone and not a tourist area. Any strip club manager dreams of MBOT profits, but that aspiration should be tempered by an understanding of their market. The differences between the two markets should be obvious to a blind person. The big spenders that management obviously dreams of aren't likely to pour into MSC anytime soon, especially now that MSC is more expensive than MBOT in the private room charges.

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Miles (534 posts) Click to send private message to Miles Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
03-May-01, 03:24 AM (PDT)
19. "RE: The Decline and Fall Of the MSC Empire"
Well caligula, since you seem too preoccupied at the moment attempting to divine who I really am instead of discussing the issue, I too will happily accept the judgment of the readers.

It's useless to maintain a dialog with someone who clearly ignores the content of my posts and instead offers purely fictitious statements, imaginary events, and textbook innuendo in an attempt to substantiate your bizarre conspiracy theories. It's sad that you are so eager to exclude the thoughts of anyone you believe isn't a current "PL" or dancer or someone with a presumed, immediate vested interest, and instead subject them to the rigor of your ungainly suspicions, but luckily, I don't have that problem.

I leave you with a rhetorical question, and given your demeanor, I'm not really interested in your answer, so don't feel obligated to respond. I won't. If "all, the club, the dancers and the PLs benefited during the pre-parking meter days" then why do you think the current amendment was enacted?

By the way, don't flatter yourself, at least not in public.

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snowboardca (189 posts) Click to send private message to snowboardca Click to check IP address of the poster
03-May-01, 05:25 PM (PDT)
20. "there is one more answer"
The owners are coked up, and don't care. The other answer is that the parking meters are a new system, and they will most likely make adjustments to the system, like letting you pay for an hour at once instead of five minute intervals. The two things that are sure are these- The parking meters will stay, and the customers will bitch but still come.
Right now they are fucked because the strippers aren't charging less for sex than before the meters went in, but they soon will. MSC will become the crack ho, twenty dollar blowjob strip club. They will be the Mcdonalds of titty bars. You will go for a cheap blowjob from an ugly chick, and they will make a greater percentage of the profits.
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snowboardcaca* (2 posts) Click to check IP address of the poster
03-May-01, 06:37 PM (PDT)
21. "RE: so what's wrong with that? (eom)"
.
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